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My bad[]

The edit had my user:talk page as a link, was completely by accident and it has been taken out. Thanks to Sxerks for pointing that out. Dreadhand 16:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Exception[]

I'm leaving the "†" off this one, because I'm not sure if true mortality extends to him, and a lot of Pagan magic seems to invoke his power long after TDP. Fish Preferred (talk) 15:22, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

As far as we know he is dead. the Eye exploded. Viktoria took over. Killing him was mentioned at garretts trial. Big McLargeHuge (talk) 22:04, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Name[]

Okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb first but before TDS, I don't think the Pagan's EVER referred to their god as the Trickster. It wouldn't really make sense..

What it seams to be is while he has a number of names, which he introduces himself to Garrett with, his enemies 'The Hammerites' refer to him as the Trickster as an insulting nickname. He is evil, he tricks men and draws them away from the true path of the Master Builder etc. Worshipers, the pagans mostly, refer to him mostly as the Woodise lord etc. the God of the Wood, and they live in the wood, he is good. Most people like Garrett and other none-Hammerite believes more take there name for him as their legendary devil. Mechanists, being an offshoot of the Hammers, keep the term. Keepers.. well, use the most common term.

Of course, TDS seams to change this and has the pagan's refer to there god as the Trickster, which doesn't make sense and I think can probably be chalked up as yet another TDS mistake.

Can anyone find ANY reference to the pagan's before TDS calling their god as 'trickster' of men? TheManicMan (talk) 17:23, October 12, 2017 (UTC)

TG CS11 "Did you think those ancient phrases were mere words, Manfool? Look at me! I am The Woodsie Lord, The Trickster of legend!" Big McLargeHuge (talk) 10:40, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I did point he introduced himself with some names including that, probably to confirm who he was to Garrett, but the Pagan's themselves never used it. Groups like the Hammerites believed he was evil, he tricked men. Groups like the pagans believed he was there God, he didn't trick them, he was the lord of the woods and the ways of nature were best. TheManicMan (talk) 10:57, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

The Cataclysm and the Trickster[]

I'm gonna say the Trickster had almost NOTHING to do with the Cataclysm in the old quarter. Lets look at evidence for and against. Starting with 'for'.

  • Keeper Andrus records in a letter when the cathedral was sealed (specially, with the Eye inside) that 'were the Trickster not opposed, he could bring destruction upon the entire city." and that is why he acted in a way which might have revealed the Keepers to others.
  • The Trickster had special interest in the Eye as part of his Dark Project, and the Eye was a key feature of the Cataclysm.

Now, we don't know for a FACT the Eye was such a key feature of the Cataclysm but it appears it was and various things point to the fact that it was more the Eye that the Keepers were sealing in the Cathedral, more then just the undead (which were clearly far beyound just that building. But this is not so much on that point as the Tricksters involvement. We can say though that the Trickster wanted the Eye to use as a key part of his plan. If it WAS the Dark Project itself, or a failed plan that lead to his creation of the Dark Project, is a bit unknown. Andrus clearly felt the Eye was something that the Trickster should not have and thus sealed it.

I think that's about it for 'For'. Lets look against:

  • The Trickster appears to have no useage of the undead.
  • The Trickster appears to have no connection to the undead.
  • Early plans for the intro to 'Waking the Dead' have Viktoria clearly state that the Trickster's realm is not that of death, but of the Green wood and vale (life)
  • The Trickster did not want to destory the city but put it back to an earlier time.

Okay.. the first two are kinda the same. At no point are undead and the trickster's forces seen together. The Trickster does not use any undead creatures (Zombies, Haunts, Apparitions) in his forces (Ape Beasts, Bugbeasts, Fire Elementals, CrayBeasts). Though it should be pointed out that with the Hammerites long connections with fighting the undead, it could be seen by them atleast that they are part of the Trickster's army, as is anything which is against the Builder, reguardless of it it really was or not.

The intro for 'Waking the dead' most likely doesn't count for much as not only was it 'cut content' but it was never even finalised to the point where it was cut. Though it does line up with the general feel of the trickster and pagans of being about life and nature. While death is part of nature, the undead are highly unnatural as they are reanimated.. THAT being said, we have no idea what causes the undead to rise. Haunts appear to be either doomed souls of 'unpure' hammerites, or 'lesser demons' reanimating their corpes, while Apparitions appear to much more be souls who did not rest in peace and, some are confused to the point of open aggression life around them. In TDP/Gold, all zombies seen at at places where Hammerites are known, or more so they are where there are alot of dead unburried bodies.

The Tricksters Dark project, as outlined in 'Escape!' documents is he is against progress where it removed nature and removed the dark. He believed while there was darkness, there had dreams, aspirations and dreads. As they progressed, they removed natura and replaced it with buildings and electric lights so man lost the ability to dream and fear. He wanted to return to that time and ability, with him being restored as a god of fear and love. While the zombies can be said to bring fear, so do alot of other things (like the Hammerites) and they seam a far more destructive force.

Of course, the Trickster's plan had many faults in his own logic. As I said he felt that without the fear of the creatures of the darkness and the mystery and magic of it all, Man no-longer had the ability to dream and aspire, yet they did still did that. He just seamed to think it wasn't in the right way and they didn't want to worship him.

If you look at his attack on the Hammerite Temple, he wasn't that much into killing.. Okay, some people on the streets were dead, but very few Hammerites were, and the High priest was captured more then killed. Trying to show them he was more powerful and to be feared and worshipped, where if he just killed them, that wouldn't have done such a job as they would be dead.

All that said.. It seams the Cataclysm was one of two things: 1) The Hammerites found the eye, took it to their Cathedral knowing it as a relic but not fully aware of it's power. It started to act of it's own and part of it's 'fun and games' it caused the undead to rise. This caught the eye of the Keepers, who knew about the Eye and that the Trickster wanted it, so sealed it away.

2) The Hammerited found the eye, took it to their cathedral knowing it as a relic. After it starting to act of it's own will, the Trickster learnt of it's location and instead of going himself or sending his servants after it, raised a host of the undead to lay siegh to the cathedral in order to gain it for himself. This got the attention of the Keepers who sealed the Cathedral.

To me, the first seams the most likely. what little records surrive in the Cathedral seam to say the cataclysm started there with the Haunts "Our own fallen brethren rise from the death and turn on us" ... "Our mighty doors availed us naught, for the assault was from within". with no comments on any link to the Tricksters forces, which appears odd for the Hammerites if indead they believed it was.

TheManicMan (talk) 11:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

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