Right. Good referencing. So, should this Characters article be a list page or a category? Because I can hardly see us putting all the references for all the characters into this one article?
Larris 13:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Ya, I think a category work work better in this instance, since it will be an alphabetic listing anyway.
And to ref a specific header in a page you can use the "pound sign" like so... M2ANTS.str
Should the category be Character or Characters?
Sxerks 14:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You know, it's possible to do both a list page and a category, but our resources are not unlimited... I'd think the category would be best called Characters, don't you agree? =)
The following was edited by Ehcmier:
m15sdoor.str (Maybe. I like to believe "Lord B." is a reference to Bafford)
M17GIFT.str (Maybe. I like to believe "Lord B." is a reference to Bafford)
Ehcmier 11:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I think we'd better keep personal comments like those to the Talk pages, for many reasons. IF, however, you can phrase the comment so that it doesn't come that strong across as a matter of opinion, then you should include it in the article.
For the issue of "Lord B.", see Grundy and Sneaksie present their arguments about that here: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183273#post183273
Larris 14:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The next question is, what should Baffords page(and others) be named?
Bafford
Lord Bafford
Bafford, Lord
They can all be done and redirected to just one, but which one. And so that the naming scheme is the same for all Lords and such.
Sxerks 15:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm really not sure. =\
Larris 15:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Bafford, Lord -- with redirects for when people type in other common Baffy pronouns. This has been a problem with just the Names List, where there's a formal and proper approach to making an entry, yet nearly no one is going to call them by anything other than the common names, as they remember them from the games.
AND we have to account for his sister Olivia Bafford, if she will get an entry of her own, otherwise she's already mentioned minimally, but mentioned nonetheless.
The article wasn't complete, I threw all the information together and put it up.
There were already notes to the editors already in place, although in Wiki-speak. The "Lord B." parenthetic info. were notes to the editors--one note, copied--knowing you'd all see it, and make a decision, without my taking more time to start a talk page, because I was going to bed. Heh. :)
Thanks for the "Lord B." link! I see I am in agreement with the general feelings of the admirable folks debating Lord B.'s identity in that thread. T2 and T3 just make me more confident about those feelings. Every single article that tells more than the game media state, is pushing into fanon territory, and will strike people differently, but there will be people who find it offensive. We've yet to create a method of admitting what is fanon amidst the canon without words. To reiterate, every page on any single item or entity, that is more than a pure collection of game media, contains different degrees of fanon.
Do you want a copy of the Names List here at the Wiki on a discussion page? The thread at TTLG has already fallen behind in revisions. The idea being to have all the resources within easy reach for the editors, not the viewers.
Ehcmier 20:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Well, you know, we could just as well make an article for the Master Names List - "List of all the names in Thief", for example. Oops. Gotta go.
Larris 21:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Hee heeeee! And we could copy and paste all of our talks into an Article and Categorise it, too! :p
Naw. It's too big for an Article, and it will be redundant once the Characters pages are in place, and it will look like a secondary Index to Characters, and it contains a lot of notes.
I've revised my two recent messages for a bit more clarity....
Okay, the way I'm seeing things now, is that I can currently provide the most DromEd resourced materials and info. The Names List is available to all, already, even if it will continue to need tweaking, and it's still a great deal of names to start Character pages with. Other materials are also available elsewhere. Since my time for the Wikia is limited, I will not be doing much more than gathering materials, or providing compiled materials that aren't readily available already. I won't be creating two pages for every new idea, unless a new idea and the time to divide facts from thoughts into two pages come at the same moment. :p
Yes, I could make this over here, and type that over there, but I'm not here often enough to do that regularly. I'm still fighting Wikia's auto-formatting so much that an article is taking twice as long to make as I'd like.
As it stands, there is enough information in this Wikia that remains to be sorted through, that it would take a couple of weeks to make most of it link-ready, let alone, look presentable. Whew!
And it's happening, guys... I'm beginng to feel a real separation from the forums. And by that I mean the yearning to return as a poster is diminishing.
Ehcmier 21:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
OMG, I caught your first formatting attempt. Big Block of Text.
See if you can format using simple HTML tags in an external editor, and then import it here? Testing would perhaps better be done in a less live environment, actually. I'm pretty sure that the number of visitors here is increasing all the time.
Also, we know that not all names around there are characters.
I did some research today regarding Lucasfilm's Holocron, their internal Star Wars continuity database. Look at these numbers, and note how they seem to be classified in categories:
The Holocron has well over 27,032 different entries. Here's a rough breakdown (as of 8/24/06): Sources: 1,180 Images: 9,503 Characters: 8,742 Planets: 3,419 Aliens: 756 Creatures: 1,255 Vehicles: 2,716 Weapons: 1,130 Groups: 1,641 (..) The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry.
I was wondering what kind of fields the database version of the Names List would contain?
Larris 02:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I used a program to replace all the ¶ with ¶¶ to give all the entries their own line.
Well, some of these are machines and devices, some of them are equipment, many are characters, and there are categories in place to fill in with the names, which can then be ticked off the List. There are names found in textures, filenames, DromEd only, and manuals only.
Larris, were you the one editing while I was editing? I screwed our work up, bad, and fought to return it back to a page that wasn't messed up. I apologise. I was removing all the excess parenthetic information, while you were doing your work. I made it as far as "Carter, Finn," went to save it, and saw the conflicting edits. It insisted in merging the edits. I have no idea what the result of that would've been. I then tried to undo only my edit, and it insisted in taking the other edits with it. Gahhh!
Ehcmier 02:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
No worries, I didn't touch the thing. I may have had an editing window up just to have a look at the formatting, but that'd be it. I don't even think I saved anything at all. =)
Now, we're gonna need the sources for each name, no question about it. How do we go about linking that?
Color coding or... maybe some clever font manipulation would do it? Or simply making a table?
Larris 03:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I think clicking a name should go to an individual page for most of the names. A page could have a table, but there are many names found in one file, in one mission, of one game. If a table is used, it shouldn't look like a big empty thing when a character has a single mention, like Deven and Shanti, found only in T1 but not in TG. Bafford's a good example to work with, since he's mentioned in all the games, more than once, and has connections to other major characters.
He also has a face, seen in the briefing. I think the pages should have links to any character sightings, too. Can pictures already uploaded on one page, such as the briefing images, be viewable on another page AND linked to another page that shares that image? The idea being that a user could view Bafford's Character page, and see his portrait from the briefing, which is clickably linked to the B02 Briefing page.
Ehcmier 04:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I've made quite a few changes, too numerous and mostly minor changes each to list, and the Master Names Lists have been updated, except the thread at TTLG.
Ehcmier 08:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Echmier
See Help:Images for ways to manipulate images. I'd guess the main thing is to have a thumbnail portrait linking to a larger version of itself, so a second link would need to be included in a caption.
But, uh, I still think this Characters page (which hasn't anything linking to it at the moment, but still show up in the Most Visited list) is less suitable for the Names List formatting than a separate List article would be.
Also, I noticed that in the list, all the Lord/Lady titles are sorted together.
Larris 12:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
(Ahem!)
Please see my disclaimers in the TTLG thread, my comment in italics at the top of the Characters List, and in the discussion pages. The Names List is a combination of two lists, one started back in 2001 when I didn't own the games or a computer that could play them, and names added years later when I did. Most of the names are listed as they were found in the game files. Almost nobody is called Surname Comma Title in the games. The collecting of all the Lords, Ladies, Brothers, Friends, Saints, Keepers, Elders, etc., comes from alphabetising a list of names added as found in the game files.
To repeat what I said before, I don't want the Names List to be the Characters pages. I agree it's too huge. Each name should be ticked off the List, and they should get their own page, unless they are decided to be so minor that they should only be mentioned as part of a more important name. Bafford's sister Olivia is mentioned in the Bafford listing, for instance. Should she get her own page? Should the Bafford Family? Should the Bafford Chronicles?
Ehcmier 19:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I think every person(no matter how minor) should should get a page.
The Bafford Family, could be a Category that bafford and his sis are a part of. Could also be a Keeper Category and so on.
Bafford Chron- if it has text it should, else not.
This Characters page is just a temp location since the creation of the Character Category.
Sxerks 20:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Seeing "TEMP" at the top of the page is the only reason I went ahead and added the Names List. The Bafford Chronicles are only mentioned in a note between two Keepers--one is Keeper Emory--about catching an initiate reading the offensive material, plus the filename contains Bafford's name: KCbafford.sch. That's as far as that one goes--unless it's loot?
Ehcmier 21:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Unnamed Acquaintances of Garrett![]
Of course, there are many readables throughout all the games without names to or from.
Examples of unnamed characters connected to Garrett:
From T1/G's B03: "An associate of mine was confined there, and has provided me with a map."
- use_m3holytip: "A former prisoner of Cragscleft says he has info about the haunted mines. Cost:100"
use_m7tip: "An acquaintance is willing to sell you some pages from a journal that he claims belonged to a long-ago fighter of the undead. Cost: 200"
use_hammertip: "One of the Hammerites is willing to offer you some information he found, but insists that you pay for it - something about not sullying his soul by helping thieves. Cost:100"
From T2's B04 with pictures!: "Last night an unusual opportunity knocked on my door. Naturally, I was a little suspicious, but my visitor said the job was too sensitive to go through the usual channels. He claimed that an old acquaintance of mine told him where to find me. I was about to ask him who our mutual friend was, when he managed to... distract me."
use_tip: "Someone wants to give you some advice... for a fee. Cost: 25"
- use_tip50: "Someone wants to give you some advice... for a fee. Cost: 50"
- use_tip100: "Someone wants to give you some advice... for a fee. Cost: 100"
M11B15: "G, Got some news for ya. A guy named Valencia just entered Dayport, and he's only there for a couple of days. He's some kinda diamond exporter...deals with rough stones. Well, while he's in town, he's storing a pouch of uncut diamonds at the Dayport Trader's Bank. Security there is supposed to be pretty loose -- hell, the place is on the top floor of one of them marble buildings, so they must not expect any company, if you know what I mean. Should be fairly straightforward, if you take the 'thieves' highway.'"
I wonder how many associates he has in-game. Let's see...there's Sammy, Basso, Cutty, Manny Jabrielle, Bertha, Perry....
Ehcmier 09:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Don't forget Giry who was eaten by spiders =) When you play the game in once you don't get a lot of the things, but when you summarize it you understand that Garrett is quite sociable. Perhaps his unnamed sources are few, maybe even one guy but her refers to him as unnamed. Then again anyone with money problems in the city will be willing to give a pro thief some info. Maybe past guards, prisoners…that sort of people. I don't blame them for wanting to stay anonymous as they might have problems with city watch or the wardens.
Dan7 16:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)